But there are some jaw-dropping moments. One comes at the start of the second installment, during a clip from Geraldo Rivera's mock "trial" of the parents on his now-defunct talk show in 1997. The audience found Patsy Ramsey guilty, but not before a witness who's an alleged "expert" on child abuse insists that a video shows JonBenét Ramsey "masturbating" with a saxophone during a public performance a few days before the six-year-old beauty queen's murder on Christmas 1996.
Um, no. She's simply pretending to play a toy saxophone during a musical interlude in a holiday song.
On December 2, Rivera was on the NewsNation show hosted by former CNN anchor Chris Cuomo, and while he didn't mention the saxophone — much less why he let that "expert" anywhere near his show — he did apologize to John Ramsey.
And JonBenét's father, who's been leading the charge to reopen the investigation now that a new Boulder Police chief is in charge and new DNA technology is available, accepted that apology.
Here's the transcript of that segment:
Chris Cuomo: But for the first time, we have John Ramsey and Geraldo Rivera to discuss how far we've come and how far we need to go. John, thank you very much for taking this opportunity. I know how difficult this is to have to keep reopening these chapters of your life, but I know you want closure and you want the truth to come out. So, thank you for being here. Geraldo, as always, what is your perspective now, as we have John Ramsey here about where your head was when you did that mock trial, and where you are today?
Geraldo Rivera: Well, mock trials and moot courts, as you know, Chris, are not that unprecedented. They're not that extraordinary, and I'll get to the, the conclusion they reached in a second. But let me just say to John Ramsey that I deeply apologize to you for what you and your family have suffered, how you have lost your wife to cancer, one child to that terrible car crash, and of course, what happened to JonBenet, six years old, who would now be 34 years old, which is an incredible fact, how long this case has been center, front row center in the American consciousness.
So, when I say I am sorry, I don't apologize for my reporting. I believe that at least half the reporters and half the nation believed that the shadow of suspicion, half the Boulder Police Department, at least those who have not retired, or those who have retired because of this case, believed it. But I don't know what happened. I just want you to know that I lament contributing to the hurt that you have endured...no one deserves to go through what you went through, that's my bottom line. And when I walk around and it is with stories like yours in my head over the last 54 years of my career, I, it is a burden to me. It's a soulful burden. And again, man to man, to you, I apologize, and I am sorry for everything you have gone through, John.
John Ramsey: Well, thank you.
Chris Cuomo hosted John Ramsey and Geraldo Rivera on his show December 2.
NewsNation
John Ramsey: Well, we want two things to happen. You know, we've been critical of the police for 28 years for not accepting help...
This case could have been solved a long time ago, in my opinion, had the police not immediately focused on Patsy and only focused on Patsy and I. You know, we accepted that and told them, “Look okay. Well, we understand that we are in the house so we're suspect, but don't stop there,” and they did. In fact, they released, I think this, I haven't seen this documentary, so I don't know fully what's in it, but they documented, I think, the police fed false information, misleading information, to the media about our potential deals before even the evidence had been recovered and looked at.
And their theory was that, okay, it was, we think it's one of the parents. It's always the parents, we just don't know which one, so let's bring intense pressure on both of them. The innocent one will turn the guilty one in. Case solved. That was the whole strategy that was confirmed to us by the DA several years later. That was their strategy to solve the case. They knew the answer, they just didn't know which one, intense pressure, one, the innocent will confess and or turn the guilty one in and case will be solved, that would be easy. And of course, the media ran with it, big time. It was juicy and sensational, and it was pretty bizarre. In our country, this would not happen in England, people go to jail for what was done in our case. Police releasing false information, the media running with it, trying us in the court of public opinion. That's, that's primitive behavior for a society. And the media was disgraceful, quite frankly, in our case then, but they were, they were fed by a even more disgraceful Police Department, and they…
Chris Cuomo: And you had said, you had said at the time, and this is unusual, Geraldo will know this even better than I, very rare for a local police department that does not have a lot of experience processing these kind of cases, to reject outside help, especially from the feds. Usually it's a statewide Task Force, but for the feds to come in and offer resources and it be turned away is almost unprecedented. Quickly, John, you believe that the DNA that they had available at the time now has new processing application, and you want that done? Explain.
John Ramsey: Let me first say, Geraldo, I accept your apology and thank you. What we want done, there’s two things we want done. We want the evidence that has been previously tested and never tested. We think there's some that has never been tested. We don't know that for, for sure, but it appears that’s the case. We want that re-sampled by one of the cutting-edge labs that's out there. It's not going, the government, I don't think, has the technology yet to do it. An Othram Labs, Bode Labs, those are really cutting-edge labs. Bode did the original testing back in 1997. They came up with Unidentified Male DNA, still unidentified. Police, that was a real problem for the police, because they’d already decided that we were the killers. Like, “how do we explain away this unidentified DNA?” And they tried for a long time find an innocent explanation.
The reason we need to retest is in order, it plays into the second thing we want done, and that is to use this familial genealogy research approach to find the killer. And that's been wildly successful. Some old, old cold cases...But to do that research, they've got to have a different, different format for the DNA than what was submitted to the federal database and I don't understand that, but that's what I'm told. So, the retesting needs to be done. Hopefully we get a good sample and in the right format that then they could do the genealogy research. And I believe we do that there's a really good chance we can solve it. But if…
Chris Cuomo: Well, we will, we will be pushing for exactly that. We will stay on it. And Geraldo, first of all, I really respect what you said to John, and I really respect that you accepted it, John. You’re both, you're both very strong individuals. Geraldo, this long after, do you believe that a case like this can be solved?
Geraldo Rivera: The Boulder police contradict or counter John and say “that there's no test that can be done that has not been done within reason.”
John Ramsey: False.
Geraldo Rivera: I don't know, it would seem to me, 28 years later, there's no other suspect has come forward. No one, the people that they have named, the pedophiles living in Thailand and the other miserable creatures, the people who took sexual pleasure from the pictures of these children at these, at these events that JonBenet participated in. And a lot of I think the heavy lifting that the Ramsey, the Ramseys had in terms of their innocence was the, the intruder evidence, evidence was pretty sparse, the you know, no one else has been has come forward as a suspect....All I know is the Boulder police have said they've done, they've done it, they've done…listen, I hope you find justice.
John Ramsey: An oversight committee of the Boulder police recommended the immediate termination of four, five, of the seven detectives, one of whom was a detective that worked on our case, and he was a roadblock. He was worthless. He was in charge of our case for 25 years. He was a former auto theft investigator. To think that they have done all that could be done is nonsense. My hope is the new chief will lead the department in the proper direction and get help....
Chris Cuomo: Everybody wants the answer. John, I've never thought it pointed at you guys, so we'll see where it leads. And you are welcome here to make the case for the duration. And I wish you closure in this. I hope they get the answer. You deserve it most of all.
Geraldo, I love you. I appreciate your candor, and we'll stay on it together. I'll need you on this one. We're going to have to push a lot of people to do things they won't want to do....
Just stay away from that saxophone.
You can watch the entire NewsNation segment here. You'll have to go to Netflix for the saxophone scene.
